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Date:
Sun Jan 29 05:00:28 2023 UTC
Message:
Daily backup
01
2023-01-22
jrmu
version=pmwiki-2.2.130 ordered=1 urlencoded=1
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agent=Mozilla/5.0 (X11; OpenBSD amd64; rv:82.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/82.0
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author=jrmu
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charset=UTF-8
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csum=
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ctime=1618381064
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host=198.251.81.119
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name=Minetest.Economy
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rev=18
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targets=
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text=FreeSociety: The Free Society Simulation Game%0a%0aUsing the minetest game as a base, we can create a real virtual society with economy!%0a%0aResource Scarcity:%0a%0aWe must turn off worldedit and any other game that creates an unrealistic scenario of unlimited resources. Instead, natural resources should be limited and scarce. Most of the world is barren desert, icy tundra, or wilderness, with practically no food and very few metals.%0a%0aWe must allow hunger, damage, and death.%0a%0aMetals are scarce and must be mined by risky and dangerous underground expeditions with little promise of reward. %0a%0aNeeds:%0a%0a# Energy -- replenished by sleeping in a bed inside a house%0a# Hunger -- replenished by processed food%0a# Thirst -- replenished by clean drinking water%0a# Fun -- replenished by purchasing amusements%0a# Aesthetics -- replenished by constructing beautiful buildings and owning valuable possessions%0a%0aMore expensive, more rare items will satisfy needs more quickly.%0a%0aIn order to satisfy needs, items must be consumed. This ensures that resources are quickly depleted and remain scarce. %0a%0aDivision of labour: %0a%0aPlayers gain experience points in a specialty with time, which increase their rate of production:%0a%0a# Harvesters: miners, farmers, lumberjacks, diggers, foragers, hunters, fishermen, oil driller%0a# Crafters: bakers, carpenters, paper makers, boat makers, oil refiner, smelter, blacksmith%0a# Professionals: doctors, teachers, soldiers, publishers, technicians, sailors, builder, explorer%0a%0aAn experienced miner can dig 10x more quickly than a novice.%0a%0aMarkets:%0a%0aBarter with physical blocks. Set up a market where it is easy to escrow items for exchange.%0a%0aUsers will naturally barter for items. The value of an item will be based on its rarity, required labor, and risk. So 1 mese block might trade for 500 wheat. Sellers and buyers can post their offers.%0a%0aMoney: %0a%0aGold and mese. Blacksmiths can mint coinage, which are actual items.%0a%0aWages:%0a%0aPaid in coinage, grain, or cattle.%0a%0aProperty:%0a%0aAllow users to own land and assets. Only the owner is allowed to use a resource. He can rent it to other players or sell the land.%0a%0aCapital improvements like building a factory, plowing a farm, building irrigation ditches, or planting forests can increase yields by 10x. They should also be very expensive so that it requires great savings in order to build.%0a%0aGuilds:%0a%0aGuilds like bakers' guilds and miners' guilds will naturally form.%0a%0aPolitics and Voting:%0a%0aAdmins play the role of government. They should enforce law and order so that terrorists cannot rob and kill everyone.%0a%0aOne player one vote. Players decide on admin policy by voting.
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time=1618497169
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author:1618497169=jrmu
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diff:1618497169:1618384315:=37c37%0a%3c Barter with physical blocks. Set up a market where it is easy to escrow items for exchange.%0a---%0a> Don't use commands. Instead, barter with physical blocks. Set up a market where it is easy to escrow items for exchange.%0a
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jrmu
host:1618497169=198.251.81.119
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author:1618384315=jrmu
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diff:1618384315:1618383666:=39,40c39,40%0a%3c Users will naturally barter for items. The value of an item will be based on its rarity, required labor, and risk. So 1 mese block might trade for 500 wheat. Sellers and buyers can post their offers.%0a%3c %0a---%0a> Users will naturally barter for items. The value of an item will be based on its rarity, required labor, and risk. So 1 mese block might trade for 500 wheat. Sellers and buyers can post their offers; no need to regulate.%0a> %0a57,58c57,58%0a%3c Guilds like bakers' guilds and miners' guilds will naturally form.%0a%3c %0a---%0a> No need to regulate. Guilds like bakers' guilds and miners' guilds will naturally form.%0a> %0a61,63c61,63%0a%3c Admins play the role of government. They should enforce law and order so that terrorists cannot rob and kill everyone.%0a%3c %0a%3c One player one vote. Players decide on admin policy by voting.%0a\ No newline at end of file%0a---%0a> Admins should enforce law and order so that terrorists cannot rob and kill everyone.%0a> %0a> One player one vote.%0a\ No newline at end of file%0a
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host:1618384315=198.251.81.119
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author:1618383666=jrmu
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diff:1618383666:1618383183:=54a55,56%0a> Admins should enforce law and order so that terrorists cannot rob and kill everyone.%0a> %0a57,63c59%0a%3c No need to regulate. Guilds like bakers' guilds and miners' guilds will naturally form.%0a%3c %0a%3c Politics and Voting:%0a%3c %0a%3c Admins should enforce law and order so that terrorists cannot rob and kill everyone.%0a%3c %0a%3c One player one vote.%0a\ No newline at end of file%0a---%0a> No need to regulate. Guilds like bakers' guilds and miners' guilds will naturally form.%0a\ No newline at end of file%0a
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host:1618383666=198.251.81.119
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author:1618383183=jrmu
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diff:1618383183:1618383129:=51,53c51%0a%3c Allow users to own land and assets. Only the owner is allowed to use a resource. He can rent it to other players or sell the land.%0a%3c %0a%3c Capital improvements like building a factory, plowing a farm, building irrigation ditches, or planting forests can increase yields by 10x. They should also be very expensive so that it requires great savings in order to build.%0a---%0a> Allow users to own land and assets. They can make capital improvements like building a factory, plowing a farm, building irrigation ditches, or planting forests. Only the owner is allowed to use a resource. He can rent it to other players or sell the land.%0a
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host:1618383183=198.251.81.119
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author:1618383129=jrmu
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diff:1618383129:1618382964:=27,28d26%0a%3c Players gain experience points in a specialty with time, which increase their rate of production:%0a%3c %0a32,33d29%0a%3c %0a%3c An experienced miner can dig 10x more quickly than a novice.%0a
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host:1618383129=198.251.81.119
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author:1618382964=jrmu
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diff:1618382964:1618382872:=7c7%0a%3c We must turn off worldedit and any other game that creates an unrealistic scenario of unlimited resources. Instead, natural resources should be limited and scarce. Most of the world is barren desert, icy tundra, or wilderness, with practically no food and very few metals.%0a---%0a> We must turn off worldedit and any other game that creates an unrealistic scenario of unlimited resources. Instead, natural resources should be limited and scarce. Most of the world is barren or just forestland, with practically no food and very few metals.%0a
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host:1618382964=198.251.81.119
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author:1618382872=jrmu
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diff:1618382872:1618382199:=11,24c11,12%0a%3c Metals are scarce and must be mined by risky and dangerous underground expeditions with little promise of reward. %0a%3c %0a%3c Needs:%0a%3c %0a%3c # Energy -- replenished by sleeping in a bed inside a house%0a%3c # Hunger -- replenished by processed food%0a%3c # Thirst -- replenished by clean drinking water%0a%3c # Fun -- replenished by purchasing amusements%0a%3c # Aesthetics -- replenished by constructing beautiful buildings and owning valuable possessions%0a%3c %0a%3c More expensive, more rare items will satisfy needs more quickly.%0a%3c %0a%3c In order to satisfy needs, items must be consumed. This ensures that resources are quickly depleted and remain scarce. %0a%3c %0a---%0a> Metals must be mined from underground%0a> %0a33,36c21,22%0a%3c Don't use commands. Instead, barter with physical blocks. Set up a market where it is easy to escrow items for exchange.%0a%3c %0a%3c Users will naturally barter for items. The value of an item will be based on its rarity, required labor, and risk. So 1 mese block might trade for 500 wheat. Sellers and buyers can post their offers; no need to regulate.%0a%3c %0a---%0a> Don't use commands. Instead, barter with physical blocks:%0a> %0a45,53c31,160%0a%3c Property:%0a%3c %0a%3c Allow users to own land and assets. They can make capital improvements like building a factory, plowing a farm, building irrigation ditches, or planting forests. Only the owner is allowed to use a resource. He can rent it to other players or sell the land.%0a%3c %0a%3c Admins should enforce law and order so that terrorists cannot rob and kill everyone.%0a%3c %0a%3c Guilds:%0a%3c %0a%3c No need to regulate. Guilds like bakers' guilds and miners' guilds will naturally form.%0a\ No newline at end of file%0a---%0a> Smith himself wrote about the "severity" of such laws against worker actions, and made a point to contrast the "clamour" of the "masters" against workers associations, while associations and collusions of the masters "are never heard by the people" though such actions are "always" and "everywhere" taking place:%0a> %0a> "We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform, combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate [...] Masters, too, sometimes enter into particular combinations to sink the wages of labour even below this rate. These are always conducted with the utmost silence and secrecy till the moment of execution; and when the workmen yield, as they sometimes do without resistance, though severely felt by them, they are never heard of by other people". In contrast, when workers combine, "the masters [...] never cease to call aloud for the assistance of the civil magistrate, and the rigorous execution of those laws which have been enacted with so much severity against the combination of servants, labourers, and journeymen."[14]%0a> %0a> In societies where the amount of labour exceeds the amount of revenue available for waged labour, competition among workers is greater than the competition among employers, and wages fall. Inversely, where revenue is abundant, labour wages rise. Smith argues that, therefore, labour wages only rise as a result of greater revenue disposed to pay for labour. Smith thought labour the same as any other commodity in this respect:%0a> %0a> "the demand for men, like that for any other commodity, necessarily regulates the production of men; quickens it when it goes on too slowly, and stops it when it advances too fast. It is this demand which regulates and determines the state of propagation in all the different countries of the world, in North America, in Europe, and in China; which renders it rapidly progressive in the first, slow and gradual in the second, and altogether stationary in the last."[15]%0a> %0a> However, the amount of revenue must increase constantly in proportion to the amount of labour for wages to remain high. Smith illustrates this by juxtaposing England with the North American colonies. In England, there is more revenue than in the colonies, but wages are lower, because more workers flock to new employment opportunities caused by the large amount of revenue— so workers eventually compete against each other as much as they did before. By contrast, as capital continues to flow to the colonial economies at least at the same rate that population increases to "fill out" this excess capital, wages there stay higher than in England.%0a> %0a> Smith was highly concerned about the problems of poverty. He writes:%0a> %0a> "poverty, though it does not prevent the generation, is extremely unfavourable to the rearing of children [...] It is not uncommon [...] in the Highlands of Scotland for a mother who has borne twenty children not to have two alive [...] In some places one half the children born die before they are four years of age; in many places before they are seven; and in almost all places before they are nine or ten. This great mortality, however, will every where be found chiefly among the children of the common people, who cannot afford to tend them with the same care as those of better station."[16]%0a> %0a> The only way to determine whether a man is rich or poor is to examine the amount of labour he can afford to purchase. "Labour is the real exchange for commodities".%0a> %0a> Smith also describes the relation of cheap years and the production of manufactures versus the production in dear years. He argues that while some examples, such as the linen production in France, show a correlation, another example in Scotland shows the opposite. He concludes that there are too many variables to make any statement about this.%0a> %0a> Of the Profits of Stock: In this chapter, Smith uses interest rates as an indicator of the profits of stock. This is because interest can only be paid with the profits of stock, and so creditors will be able to raise rates in proportion to the increase or decrease of the profits of their debtors.%0a> %0a> Smith argues that the profits of stock are inversely proportional to the wages of labour, because as more money is spent compensating labour, there is less remaining for personal profit. It follows that, in societies where competition among labourers is greatest relative to competition among employers, profits will be much higher. Smith illustrates this by comparing interest rates in England and Scotland. In England, government laws against usury had kept maximum interest rates very low, but even the maximum rate was believed to be higher than the rate at which money was usually loaned. In Scotland, however, interest rates are much higher. This is the result of a greater proportion of capitalists in England, which offsets some competition among labourers and raises wages.%0a> %0a> However, Smith notes that, curiously, interest rates in the colonies are also remarkably high (recall that, in the previous chapter, Smith described how wages in the colonies are higher than in England). Smith attributes this to the fact that, when an empire takes control of a colony, prices for a huge abundance of land and resources are extremely cheap. This allows capitalists to increase his profit, but simultaneously draws many capitalists to the colonies, increasing the wages of labour. As this is done, however, the profits of stock in the mother country rise (or at least cease to fall), as much of it has already flocked offshore.%0a> %0a> Of Wages and Profit in the Different Employments of Labour and Stock: Smith repeatedly attacks groups of politically aligned individuals who attempt to use their collective influence to manipulate the government into doing their bidding. At the time, these were referred to as "factions," but are now more commonly called "special interests," a term that can comprise international bankers, corporate conglomerations, outright oligopolies, trade unions and other groups. Indeed, Smith had a particular distrust of the tradesman class. He felt that the members of this class, especially acting together within the guilds they want to form, could constitute a power block and manipulate the state into regulating for special interests against the general interest:%0a> %0a> "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices. It is impossible indeed to prevent such meetings, by any law which either could be executed, or would be consistent with liberty and justice. But though the law cannot hinder people of the same trade from sometimes assembling together, it ought to do nothing to facilitate such assemblies; much less to render them necessary."%0a> %0a> Smith also argues against government subsidies of certain trades, because this will draw many more people to the trade than what would otherwise be normal, collectively lowering their wages.%0a> %0a> Chapter 10, part ii, motivates an understanding of the idea of feudalism.%0a> %0a> Of the Rent of the Land: Rent, considered as the price paid for the use of land, is naturally the highest the tenant can afford in the actual circumstances of the land. In adjusting lease terms, the landlord endeavours to leave him no greater share of the produce than what is sufficient to keep up the stock from which he furnishes the seed, pays the labour, and purchases and maintains the cattle and other instruments of husbandry, together with the ordinary profits of farming stock in the neighbourhood. This is evidently the smallest share with which the tenant can content himself without being a loser, and the landlord seldom means to leave him any more. Whatever part of the produce, or, what is the same thing, whatever part of its price, is over and above this share, he naturally endeavours to reserve to himself as the rent of his land, which is evidently the highest the tenant can afford to pay in the actual circumstances of the land. Sometimes, indeed, the liberality, more frequently the ignorance, of the landlord, makes him accept of somewhat less than this portion; and sometimes too, though more rarely, the ignorance of the tenant makes him undertake to pay somewhat more, or to content himself with somewhat less, than the ordinary profits of farming stock in the neighbourhood. This portion, however, may still be considered as the natural rent of land, or the rent for which it is naturally meant that land should for the most part be let. %0a> Mese blocks gold bars%0a> 10:32 %3c&jrmu> and kids could trade 200 grain for 1 mese%0a> 10:32 %3c&jrmu> lewis_clark doesn't agree but I think he's greatly mistaken%0a> 10:33 %3c&jrmu> if we create a world where there is hunger enabled, and no world edit, %0a> and death enabled%0a> 10:33 %3c&jrmu> it's a lot more fun to have a realistic economy%0a> 10:33 %3c&jrmu> well I mean Nav|C the problem with survival mode currently is%0a> 10:33 %3c&jrmu> kids just kill each other%0a> 10:33 %3c&jrmu> instead of trading%0a> 10:33 %3c&jrmu> i meant we want to have economic competition%0a> 10:33 %3c&jrmu> where people buy and sell land%0a> 10:33 %3c&jrmu> and access to forests%0a> 10:34 %3c&jrmu> right now survival mode is just a free for all melee%0a> 10:34 %3c&jrmu> but you can imagine a survival mode where kids build factories%0a> 10:34 %3c&jrmu> and trade in marketplaces%0a> 10:34 %3c&jrmu> like, i own this forest%0a> 10:34 %3c&jrmu> you can rent it from me for 200 grain%0a> 10:34 %3c&jrmu> so instead of just building stuff%0a> 10:35 %3c&jrmu> kids will try to build practical improvements%0a> 10:35 %3c&jrmu> with the goal of trying to make society more efficient%0a> 10:35 %3c&jrmu> you could have guilds forming%0a> 10:35 %3c&jrmu> like the bread bakers' guild or the mese mining guild%0a> 10:36 %3c&jrmu> the problem is that survival mode right now lets a bunch of terrorists %0a> rob and kill everyone%0a> 10:36 %3c&jrmu> that makes the game unfun%0a> 10:36 %3c&jrmu> but if it had a stable society, it would mimic the real world%0a> 10:36 %3c&jrmu> i'm just trying to make the game more realistic%0a> 10:36 %3c&jrmu> and hence more fun%0a> 10:38 %3c&jrmu> but having kids work hard for something and be rewarded by it%0a> 10:38 %3c&jrmu> that's really satisfying%0a> 10:38 %3c&jrmu> eg, I worked on this minetest world for 3 months and saved up enough to %0a> buy a house%0a> 10:38 %3c&jrmu> check out my mese plated furniture which took me 6 months to acquire%0a> 10:39 %3c&jrmu> there's no value or fun factor when you can create gold %0a> from the air%0a> 10:39 %3c&jrmu> from thin air*%0a> 10:39 %3c&jrmu> worldedit is like eating a bag of doritos%0a> 10:39 %3c&jrmu> it feels good at first but leaves you with an empty nauseating feeling%0a> 10:41 %3c&jrmu> managing time and capital assets wisely is a real life skil%0a> 10:41 %3c&jrmu> and so is bartering%0a> 10:41 %3c&jrmu> what mechanics are we missing %0a> 10:42 %3c&jrmu> that you would need filled in%0a> 10:42 %3c&jrmu> i'll try to fill them in%0a> 10:43 %3c&jrmu> we have hunger, we have death, we have scarcity of time and scarcity of %0a> natural resources%0a> 10:43 %3c&jrmu> coinage is missing but I think mese and gold can be a decent substitute%0a> 10:44 %3c&jrmu> we could write mods for factories and inventions%0a> 10:45 %3c&jrmu> iron was high up%0a> 10:45 %3c&jrmu> and then mese is very very low down in the earth%0a> 10:45 %3c&jrmu> plus you had to acquire stuff to mine deeper in the earht because%0a> 10:45 %3c&jrmu> diamond and mese ore is too hard to mine with stone tools%0a> 11:01 %3c&jrmu> it doesn't have to be minetest, something better is welcome%0a> 11:01 %3c&jrmu> if you've got an open source trading guild game, let's do that%0a> 11:06 %3c&jrmu> well if nobody is going to suggest me an alternative%0a> 11:06 %3c&jrmu> I'm going to push for this, the minetest economy worlds%0a> 11:07 %3c&jrmu> I plan to have competitions and rankings boards%0a> 13:34 %3c&jrmu> we'll change it%0a> 13:34 %3c&jrmu> to make it an empire building game%0a> 13:34 %3c&jrmu> you can have a pacifist version where nations are not allowed to compete%0a> 13:34 %3c&jrmu> and a real world version where nation states can emerge%0a> 13:35 %3c&jrmu> now i think the real limitation right now in minetest%0a> 13:35 %3c&jrmu> is the lack of a market%0a> 13:35 %3c&jrmu> like, yes we have block sbut%0a> 13:35 %3c&jrmu> it's quite hard to barter%0a> 13:35 %3c&jrmu> i have to manually dump the blocks out to trade them with you%0a> 13:35 %3c&jrmu> and there's no way to demarcate property ownership%0a> 13:35 %3c&jrmu> if there were overlays that showed property under my control%0a> 13:35 %3c&jrmu> like a green overlay for the green player, a pink one of the pink player%0a> 13:36 %3c&jrmu> then you could clearly establish property ownership and transactions %0a> would make a lot of sense%0a> 13:36 %3c&jrmu> what do you think%0a> 13:36 %3c&jrmu> i think that's the real mechanism missing%0a> 13:36 %3c&jrmu> 1) no coinage, 2) no marketplace, and 3) no clear property ownership%0a> 13:36 %3c&jrmu> in minetest it's basically you can use whatever you can steal%0a> 13:37 %3c&jrmu> even if lewis_clark you felt like minetest could not handle this%0a> 13:37 %3c&jrmu> we could always build our own%0a> 13:37 %3c&jrmu> using craft, that bsd licensed version%0a> 13:37 %3c&jrmu> and as i said it becomes a valuable source of in app purchases%0a> 13:37 %3c&jrmu> because virtual scarcity becomes something people are willing to pay %0a> money for%0a> 13:40 %3c&jrmu> : http://www.voxeljs.com/%0a> 13:40 %3c&jrmu> bsd licensed worldeditor%0a> 13:40 %3c&jrmu> in your browser%0a> 13:41 %3c&jrmu> but I still think Craft has more potential as the BSD licensed %0a> replacement https://github.com/fogleman/Craft%0a> 13:54 %3c&jrmu> btw lewis_clark i looked up cookie clicker%0a> 13:54 %3c&jrmu> that is totally *not* want I wanted, that game looks boring%0a> 14:02 %3c&jrmu> so here's one person's attempt at economy in minecraft: %0a> https://empireminecraft.com/wiki/player-economy/%0a> 14:03 %3c&jrmu> /trade [WithPlayerName] %3cOptionalRupees> - Allows you to initiate a %0a> trade with someone, with an option to include Rupees.%0a> 14:06 %3c&jrmu> so here is what I would propose%0a> 14:07 %3c&jrmu> 1) require more consumption of resources, like a constant demand for %0a> hunger and units that wear out constantly%0a> 14:07 %3c&jrmu> 2) enable the loss of health and death%0a> 14:08 %3c&jrmu> 3) need a large population of at least 20 players%0a> 14:09 %3c&jrmu> 4) more labor-saving improvements, factories, infrastructure%0a
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host:1618382872=198.251.81.119
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author:1618382199=jrmu
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diff:1618382199:1618382037:=1,12c1,5%0a%3c FreeSociety: The Free Society Simulation Game%0a%3c %0a%3c Using the minetest game as a base, we can create a real virtual society with economy!%0a%3c %0a%3c Resource Scarcity:%0a%3c %0a%3c We must turn off worldedit and any other game that creates an unrealistic scenario of unlimited resources. Instead, natural resources should be limited and scarce. Most of the world is barren or just forestland, with practically no food and very few metals.%0a%3c %0a%3c We must allow hunger, damage, and death.%0a%3c %0a%3c Metals must be mined from underground%0a%3c %0a---%0a> MySociety: Virtual Society%0a> %0a> Based on Minetest,%0a> %0a> %0a27,29c20%0a%3c Wages:%0a%3c %0a%3c Paid in coinage, grain, or cattle.%0a---%0a> Of the Wages of Labour: In this section, Smith describes how the wages of labour are dictated primarily by the competition among labourers and masters. When labourers bid against one another for limited opportunities for employment, the wages of labour collectively fall, whereas when employers compete against one another for limited supplies of labour, the wages of labour collectively rise. However, this process of competition is often circumvented by combinations among labourers and among masters. When labourers combine and no longer bid against one another, their wages rise, whereas when masters combine, wages fall. In Smith's day, organised labour was dealt with very harshly by the law.%0a
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host:1618382199=198.251.81.119
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author:1618382037=jrmu
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diff:1618382037:1618381853:=12,18c12,18%0a%3c Markets:%0a%3c %0a%3c Don't use commands. Instead, barter with physical blocks:%0a%3c %0a%3c Money: %0a%3c %0a%3c Gold and mese. Blacksmiths can mint coinage, which are actual items.%0a---%0a> has caused a greater increase in production than any other factor. This diversification is greatest for nations with more industry and improvement, and is responsible for "universal opulence" in those countries. Agriculture is less amenable than manufacturing to division of labour; hence, rich nations are not so far ahead of poor nations in agriculture as in manufacturing.%0a> %0a> Of the Principle which gives Occasion to the Division of Labour: Division of labour arises not from innate wisdom, but from humans' propensity to barter.%0a> %0a> That the Division of Labour is Limited by the Extent of the Market: Limited opportunity for exchange discourages division of labour. Because "water-carriage" (i.e. transportation) extends the market, division of labour, with its improvements, comes earliest to cities near waterways. Civilization began around the highly navigable Mediterranean Sea.%0a> %0a> Of the Origin and Use of Money: With division of labour, the produce of one's own labour can fill only a small part of one's needs. Different commodities have served as a common medium of exchange, but all nations have finally settled on metals, which are durable and divisible, for this purpose. Before coinage, people had to weigh and assay with each exchange, or risk "the grossest frauds and impositions." Thus nations began stamping metal, on one side only, to ascertain purity, or on all sides, to stipulate purity and amount. The quantity of real metal in coins has diminished, due to the "avarice and injustice of princes and sovereign states," enabling them to pay their debts in appearance only, and to the defraudment of creditors.%0a
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diff:1618381853:1618381830:=10c10%0a%3c # Professionals: doctors, teachers, soldiers, publishers, technicians, sailors, builder, explorer%0a---%0a> # Professionals: doctors, teachers, soldiers, publishers, technicians, sailors, builder%0a
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diff:1618381830:1618381818:=10c10%0a%3c # Professionals: doctors, teachers, soldiers, publishers, technicians, sailors, builder%0a---%0a> # Professionals: doctors, teachers, soldiers, publishers, technicians, sailors%0a
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diff:1618381818:1618381736:=8,9c8,9%0a%3c # Harvesters: miners, farmers, lumberjacks, diggers, foragers, hunters, fishermen, oil driller%0a%3c # Crafters: bakers, carpenters, paper makers, boat makers, oil refiner, smelter, blacksmith%0a---%0a> # Harvesters: miners, farmers, lumberjacks, diggers, foragers, hunters, fishermen%0a> # Crafters: bakers, carpenters, paper makers, boat makers%0a
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diff:1618381736:1618381540:=1,2c1,2%0a%3c MySociety: Virtual Society%0a%3c %0a---%0a> RealMarkets: The Virtual Market Game%0a> %0a8c8%0a%3c # Harvesters: miners, farmers, lumberjacks, diggers, foragers, hunters, fishermen%0a---%0a> # Harvesters: miners, farmers, lumberjacks, diggers, foragers%0a
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diff:1618381540:1618381519:=9,10c9,10%0a%3c # Crafters: bakers, carpenters, paper makers, boat makers%0a%3c # Professionals: doctors, teachers, soldiers, publishers, technicians, sailors%0a---%0a> # Crafters: bakers, carpenters, paper makers%0a> # Professionals: doctors, teachers, soldiers, publishers, technicians%0a
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diff:1618381519:1618381510:=10c10%0a%3c # Professionals: doctors, teachers, soldiers, publishers, technicians%0a---%0a> # Professionals: doctors, teachers, soldiers, publishers%0a
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host:1618381519=198.251.81.119
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author:1618381510=jrmu
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diff:1618381510:1618381201:=8,10c8,10%0a%3c # Harvesters: miners, farmers, lumberjacks, diggers, foragers%0a%3c # Crafters: bakers, carpenters, paper makers%0a%3c # Professionals: doctors, teachers, soldiers, publishers%0a---%0a> Harvesters: miners, farmers, lumberjacks, diggers%0a> Crafters: bakers, carpenters, %0a> Professionals: doctors, teachers, soldiers%0a
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author:1618381201=jrmu
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diff:1618381201:1618381064:=5,54d4%0a%3c %0a%3c Division of labour: %0a%3c %0a%3c Harvesters: miners, farmers, lumberjacks, diggers%0a%3c Crafters: bakers, carpenters, %0a%3c Professionals: doctors, teachers, soldiers%0a%3c %0a%3c has caused a greater increase in production than any other factor. This diversification is greatest for nations with more industry and improvement, and is responsible for "universal opulence" in those countries. Agriculture is less amenable than manufacturing to division of labour; hence, rich nations are not so far ahead of poor nations in agriculture as in manufacturing.%0a%3c %0a%3c Of the Principle which gives Occasion to the Division of Labour: Division of labour arises not from innate wisdom, but from humans' propensity to barter.%0a%3c %0a%3c That the Division of Labour is Limited by the Extent of the Market: Limited opportunity for exchange discourages division of labour. Because "water-carriage" (i.e. transportation) extends the market, division of labour, with its improvements, comes earliest to cities near waterways. Civilization began around the highly navigable Mediterranean Sea.%0a%3c %0a%3c Of the Origin and Use of Money: With division of labour, the produce of one's own labour can fill only a small part of one's needs. Different commodities have served as a common medium of exchange, but all nations have finally settled on metals, which are durable and divisible, for this purpose. Before coinage, people had to weigh and assay with each exchange, or risk "the grossest frauds and impositions." Thus nations began stamping metal, on one side only, to ascertain purity, or on all sides, to stipulate purity and amount. The quantity of real metal in coins has diminished, due to the "avarice and injustice of princes and sovereign states," enabling them to pay their debts in appearance only, and to the defraudment of creditors.%0a%3c %0a%3c Of the Wages of Labour: In this section, Smith describes how the wages of labour are dictated primarily by the competition among labourers and masters. When labourers bid against one another for limited opportunities for employment, the wages of labour collectively fall, whereas when employers compete against one another for limited supplies of labour, the wages of labour collectively rise. However, this process of competition is often circumvented by combinations among labourers and among masters. When labourers combine and no longer bid against one another, their wages rise, whereas when masters combine, wages fall. In Smith's day, organised labour was dealt with very harshly by the law.%0a%3c %0a%3c Smith himself wrote about the "severity" of such laws against worker actions, and made a point to contrast the "clamour" of the "masters" against workers associations, while associations and collusions of the masters "are never heard by the people" though such actions are "always" and "everywhere" taking place:%0a%3c %0a%3c "We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform, combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate [...] Masters, too, sometimes enter into particular combinations to sink the wages of labour even below this rate. These are always conducted with the utmost silence and secrecy till the moment of execution; and when the workmen yield, as they sometimes do without resistance, though severely felt by them, they are never heard of by other people". In contrast, when workers combine, "the masters [...] never cease to call aloud for the assistance of the civil magistrate, and the rigorous execution of those laws which have been enacted with so much severity against the combination of servants, labourers, and journeymen."[14]%0a%3c %0a%3c In societies where the amount of labour exceeds the amount of revenue available for waged labour, competition among workers is greater than the competition among employers, and wages fall. Inversely, where revenue is abundant, labour wages rise. Smith argues that, therefore, labour wages only rise as a result of greater revenue disposed to pay for labour. Smith thought labour the same as any other commodity in this respect:%0a%3c %0a%3c "the demand for men, like that for any other commodity, necessarily regulates the production of men; quickens it when it goes on too slowly, and stops it when it advances too fast. It is this demand which regulates and determines the state of propagation in all the different countries of the world, in North America, in Europe, and in China; which renders it rapidly progressive in the first, slow and gradual in the second, and altogether stationary in the last."[15]%0a%3c %0a%3c However, the amount of revenue must increase constantly in proportion to the amount of labour for wages to remain high. Smith illustrates this by juxtaposing England with the North American colonies. In England, there is more revenue than in the colonies, but wages are lower, because more workers flock to new employment opportunities caused by the large amount of revenue— so workers eventually compete against each other as much as they did before. By contrast, as capital continues to flow to the colonial economies at least at the same rate that population increases to "fill out" this excess capital, wages there stay higher than in England.%0a%3c %0a%3c Smith was highly concerned about the problems of poverty. He writes:%0a%3c %0a%3c "poverty, though it does not prevent the generation, is extremely unfavourable to the rearing of children [...] It is not uncommon [...] in the Highlands of Scotland for a mother who has borne twenty children not to have two alive [...] In some places one half the children born die before they are four years of age; in many places before they are seven; and in almost all places before they are nine or ten. This great mortality, however, will every where be found chiefly among the children of the common people, who cannot afford to tend them with the same care as those of better station."[16]%0a%3c %0a%3c The only way to determine whether a man is rich or poor is to examine the amount of labour he can afford to purchase. "Labour is the real exchange for commodities".%0a%3c %0a%3c Smith also describes the relation of cheap years and the production of manufactures versus the production in dear years. He argues that while some examples, such as the linen production in France, show a correlation, another example in Scotland shows the opposite. He concludes that there are too many variables to make any statement about this.%0a%3c %0a%3c Of the Profits of Stock: In this chapter, Smith uses interest rates as an indicator of the profits of stock. This is because interest can only be paid with the profits of stock, and so creditors will be able to raise rates in proportion to the increase or decrease of the profits of their debtors.%0a%3c %0a%3c Smith argues that the profits of stock are inversely proportional to the wages of labour, because as more money is spent compensating labour, there is less remaining for personal profit. It follows that, in societies where competition among labourers is greatest relative to competition among employers, profits will be much higher. Smith illustrates this by comparing interest rates in England and Scotland. In England, government laws against usury had kept maximum interest rates very low, but even the maximum rate was believed to be higher than the rate at which money was usually loaned. In Scotland, however, interest rates are much higher. This is the result of a greater proportion of capitalists in England, which offsets some competition among labourers and raises wages.%0a%3c %0a%3c However, Smith notes that, curiously, interest rates in the colonies are also remarkably high (recall that, in the previous chapter, Smith described how wages in the colonies are higher than in England). Smith attributes this to the fact that, when an empire takes control of a colony, prices for a huge abundance of land and resources are extremely cheap. This allows capitalists to increase his profit, but simultaneously draws many capitalists to the colonies, increasing the wages of labour. As this is done, however, the profits of stock in the mother country rise (or at least cease to fall), as much of it has already flocked offshore.%0a%3c %0a%3c Of Wages and Profit in the Different Employments of Labour and Stock: Smith repeatedly attacks groups of politically aligned individuals who attempt to use their collective influence to manipulate the government into doing their bidding. At the time, these were referred to as "factions," but are now more commonly called "special interests," a term that can comprise international bankers, corporate conglomerations, outright oligopolies, trade unions and other groups. Indeed, Smith had a particular distrust of the tradesman class. He felt that the members of this class, especially acting together within the guilds they want to form, could constitute a power block and manipulate the state into regulating for special interests against the general interest:%0a%3c %0a%3c "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices. It is impossible indeed to prevent such meetings, by any law which either could be executed, or would be consistent with liberty and justice. But though the law cannot hinder people of the same trade from sometimes assembling together, it ought to do nothing to facilitate such assemblies; much less to render them necessary."%0a%3c %0a%3c Smith also argues against government subsidies of certain trades, because this will draw many more people to the trade than what would otherwise be normal, collectively lowering their wages.%0a%3c %0a%3c Chapter 10, part ii, motivates an understanding of the idea of feudalism.%0a%3c %0a%3c Of the Rent of the Land: Rent, considered as the price paid for the use of land, is naturally the highest the tenant can afford in the actual circumstances of the land. In adjusting lease terms, the landlord endeavours to leave him no greater share of the produce than what is sufficient to keep up the stock from which he furnishes the seed, pays the labour, and purchases and maintains the cattle and other instruments of husbandry, together with the ordinary profits of farming stock in the neighbourhood. This is evidently the smallest share with which the tenant can content himself without being a loser, and the landlord seldom means to leave him any more. Whatever part of the produce, or, what is the same thing, whatever part of its price, is over and above this share, he naturally endeavours to reserve to himself as the rent of his land, which is evidently the highest the tenant can afford to pay in the actual circumstances of the land. Sometimes, indeed, the liberality, more frequently the ignorance, of the landlord, makes him accept of somewhat less than this portion; and sometimes too, though more rarely, the ignorance of the tenant makes him undertake to pay somewhat more, or to content himself with somewhat less, than the ordinary profits of farming stock in the neighbourhood. This portion, however, may still be considered as the natural rent of land, or the rent for which it is naturally meant that land should for the most part be let. %0a
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diff:1618381064:1618381064:=1,101d0%0a%3c RealMarkets: The Virtual Market Game%0a%3c %0a%3c Based on Minetest,%0a%3c %0a%3c Mese blocks gold bars%0a%3c 10:32 %3c&jrmu> and kids could trade 200 grain for 1 mese%0a%3c 10:32 %3c&jrmu> lewis_clark doesn't agree but I think he's greatly mistaken%0a%3c 10:33 %3c&jrmu> if we create a world where there is hunger enabled, and no world edit, %0a%3c and death enabled%0a%3c 10:33 %3c&jrmu> it's a lot more fun to have a realistic economy%0a%3c 10:33 %3c&jrmu> well I mean Nav|C the problem with survival mode currently is%0a%3c 10:33 %3c&jrmu> kids just kill each other%0a%3c 10:33 %3c&jrmu> instead of trading%0a%3c 10:33 %3c&jrmu> i meant we want to have economic competition%0a%3c 10:33 %3c&jrmu> where people buy and sell land%0a%3c 10:33 %3c&jrmu> and access to forests%0a%3c 10:34 %3c&jrmu> right now survival mode is just a free for all melee%0a%3c 10:34 %3c&jrmu> but you can imagine a survival mode where kids build factories%0a%3c 10:34 %3c&jrmu> and trade in marketplaces%0a%3c 10:34 %3c&jrmu> like, i own this forest%0a%3c 10:34 %3c&jrmu> you can rent it from me for 200 grain%0a%3c 10:34 %3c&jrmu> so instead of just building stuff%0a%3c 10:35 %3c&jrmu> kids will try to build practical improvements%0a%3c 10:35 %3c&jrmu> with the goal of trying to make society more efficient%0a%3c 10:35 %3c&jrmu> you could have guilds forming%0a%3c 10:35 %3c&jrmu> like the bread bakers' guild or the mese mining guild%0a%3c 10:36 %3c&jrmu> the problem is that survival mode right now lets a bunch of terrorists %0a%3c rob and kill everyone%0a%3c 10:36 %3c&jrmu> that makes the game unfun%0a%3c 10:36 %3c&jrmu> but if it had a stable society, it would mimic the real world%0a%3c 10:36 %3c&jrmu> i'm just trying to make the game more realistic%0a%3c 10:36 %3c&jrmu> and hence more fun%0a%3c 10:38 %3c&jrmu> but having kids work hard for something and be rewarded by it%0a%3c 10:38 %3c&jrmu> that's really satisfying%0a%3c 10:38 %3c&jrmu> eg, I worked on this minetest world for 3 months and saved up enough to %0a%3c buy a house%0a%3c 10:38 %3c&jrmu> check out my mese plated furniture which took me 6 months to acquire%0a%3c 10:39 %3c&jrmu> there's no value or fun factor when you can create gold %0a%3c from the air%0a%3c 10:39 %3c&jrmu> from thin air*%0a%3c 10:39 %3c&jrmu> worldedit is like eating a bag of doritos%0a%3c 10:39 %3c&jrmu> it feels good at first but leaves you with an empty nauseating feeling%0a%3c 10:41 %3c&jrmu> managing time and capital assets wisely is a real life skil%0a%3c 10:41 %3c&jrmu> and so is bartering%0a%3c 10:41 %3c&jrmu> what mechanics are we missing %0a%3c 10:42 %3c&jrmu> that you would need filled in%0a%3c 10:42 %3c&jrmu> i'll try to fill them in%0a%3c 10:43 %3c&jrmu> we have hunger, we have death, we have scarcity of time and scarcity of %0a%3c natural resources%0a%3c 10:43 %3c&jrmu> coinage is missing but I think mese and gold can be a decent substitute%0a%3c 10:44 %3c&jrmu> we could write mods for factories and inventions%0a%3c 10:45 %3c&jrmu> iron was high up%0a%3c 10:45 %3c&jrmu> and then mese is very very low down in the earth%0a%3c 10:45 %3c&jrmu> plus you had to acquire stuff to mine deeper in the earht because%0a%3c 10:45 %3c&jrmu> diamond and mese ore is too hard to mine with stone tools%0a%3c 11:01 %3c&jrmu> it doesn't have to be minetest, something better is welcome%0a%3c 11:01 %3c&jrmu> if you've got an open source trading guild game, let's do that%0a%3c 11:06 %3c&jrmu> well if nobody is going to suggest me an alternative%0a%3c 11:06 %3c&jrmu> I'm going to push for this, the minetest economy worlds%0a%3c 11:07 %3c&jrmu> I plan to have competitions and rankings boards%0a%3c 13:34 %3c&jrmu> we'll change it%0a%3c 13:34 %3c&jrmu> to make it an empire building game%0a%3c 13:34 %3c&jrmu> you can have a pacifist version where nations are not allowed to compete%0a%3c 13:34 %3c&jrmu> and a real world version where nation states can emerge%0a%3c 13:35 %3c&jrmu> now i think the real limitation right now in minetest%0a%3c 13:35 %3c&jrmu> is the lack of a market%0a%3c 13:35 %3c&jrmu> like, yes we have block sbut%0a%3c 13:35 %3c&jrmu> it's quite hard to barter%0a%3c 13:35 %3c&jrmu> i have to manually dump the blocks out to trade them with you%0a%3c 13:35 %3c&jrmu> and there's no way to demarcate property ownership%0a%3c 13:35 %3c&jrmu> if there were overlays that showed property under my control%0a%3c 13:35 %3c&jrmu> like a green overlay for the green player, a pink one of the pink player%0a%3c 13:36 %3c&jrmu> then you could clearly establish property ownership and transactions %0a%3c would make a lot of sense%0a%3c 13:36 %3c&jrmu> what do you think%0a%3c 13:36 %3c&jrmu> i think that's the real mechanism missing%0a%3c 13:36 %3c&jrmu> 1) no coinage, 2) no marketplace, and 3) no clear property ownership%0a%3c 13:36 %3c&jrmu> in minetest it's basically you can use whatever you can steal%0a%3c 13:37 %3c&jrmu> even if lewis_clark you felt like minetest could not handle this%0a%3c 13:37 %3c&jrmu> we could always build our own%0a%3c 13:37 %3c&jrmu> using craft, that bsd licensed version%0a%3c 13:37 %3c&jrmu> and as i said it becomes a valuable source of in app purchases%0a%3c 13:37 %3c&jrmu> because virtual scarcity becomes something people are willing to pay %0a%3c money for%0a%3c 13:40 %3c&jrmu> : http://www.voxeljs.com/%0a%3c 13:40 %3c&jrmu> bsd licensed worldeditor%0a%3c 13:40 %3c&jrmu> in your browser%0a%3c 13:41 %3c&jrmu> but I still think Craft has more potential as the BSD licensed %0a%3c replacement https://github.com/fogleman/Craft%0a%3c 13:54 %3c&jrmu> btw lewis_clark i looked up cookie clicker%0a%3c 13:54 %3c&jrmu> that is totally *not* want I wanted, that game looks boring%0a%3c 14:02 %3c&jrmu> so here's one person's attempt at economy in minecraft: %0a%3c https://empireminecraft.com/wiki/player-economy/%0a%3c 14:03 %3c&jrmu> /trade [WithPlayerName] %3cOptionalRupees> - Allows you to initiate a %0a%3c trade with someone, with an option to include Rupees.%0a%3c 14:06 %3c&jrmu> so here is what I would propose%0a%3c 14:07 %3c&jrmu> 1) require more consumption of resources, like a constant demand for %0a%3c hunger and units that wear out constantly%0a%3c 14:07 %3c&jrmu> 2) enable the loss of health and death%0a%3c 14:08 %3c&jrmu> 3) need a large population of at least 20 players%0a%3c 14:09 %3c&jrmu> 4) more labor-saving improvements, factories, infrastructure%0a
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IRCNow